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Old 01-03-2009, 10:47 PM   #1
Bill
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Question

I just procured a new ANTEC EA380AC based upon previous good results, and the HWsecrets teardown review of similar line...ie the EA500.

When I went to replace, unpleasant surprise...the Compaq case (a D530)
original power supply, a 240W, is larger, heavier internal heatsinks, different votages, (not just ratings in amps, voltages), and is different shape, being a bit fatter, and much shorter.

The supply I bought is an ATX2.2, std 12v rails, 3.3, 5v, -12v, 5vsb

The old supply (still working, want more power now, adding draw to pc)
had the following: 5.08v, 3.33v, 12v, 12.8v, -12v, 5.08vaux

I'm thinking that either in the past 4 years they revised ATX voltages, or that even though this looks like std ATX mobo, it isn't?

Will go to Compaq support and punch in the replacement part number for the supply, and see what they state the form factor is for it etc...if they have data still for this older unit...they may...meantime, is this an old AT ya think?
Attached are pix of the case ft/rr and the old and new(ATX2.2) supply.
Bill

Well, I would still like an answer to the mystery of the totally different form factor power supply, and the different voltage levels defined on the supply I provided in initial posting.

However, have done considerable research now at Compaq and at New Egg and on this website, and at FSB power mfg website.

Even the most simple supplies I can find available (quality ones with sufficient power and at least 2 sata conn like the original supply had, plus additional for upgrades, etc etc) all have the same "new" form factor, totally different than the original.

For example, the FSB chinese drawings for the supplies all show the same ATX supplies, sparkle, etc...don't want to go 300W, might as well keep the original 240W then, it is better built than most new 400W supplies, has sata, heavy and well heatsunk, etc.

Best I can tell, I am going to have to actually cut a piece of new sheetmetal to rivet as an extension to the old case and then drill and tap it to match the new supplies....and that only covers the two inline screws...and the other corner screw...that new ATX offset screw will just have to go unmounted....

I may add some double sided 3M VHB tape in the corner to keep that side tight and stable...I'd drill and tap the corner of the new supply model to hold a std 4-hole rectangle pattern instead, but likely would void my warranty if ever had a reason to return the supply in future.

whatapain....anyone know a mfg I haven't located that makes this supply, or did compaq actually design cases and supplies that forced users to use their parts...??? ie non-industry std? I know they used to do that with their motherboards for a while, and had the processors on a non-main board etc etc...ie non-AT cases and proprietary boards...couldn't upgrade the systems.

But, this case appears for all intents and purposes to be a standard ATX case with standard ATX mobo....

Any chance the MOBO actually NEEDS oddball voltages like:
5.08v, 3.33v, 12.8v, 5.08vaux? I mean, the mfg ripple specs for power supplies are approx .1v in the first place...so expecting .03v diff or .o8diff just seems weird....and so suspect will just plug in and work with new supply.

Anyone else upgraded an HP/Compaq D530 before?
Bill
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Last edited by Cheetos; 03-25-2009 at 09:49 AM.
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Old 01-04-2009, 12:57 AM   #2
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Default Not so sure...see my new post and pix...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabriel Torres View Post
ATX is a standard for cases, power supplies and motherboards. It defines sizes and, in the case of power supplies, connectors. All parts today are ATX-compatible so you don't need to worry about that.

Upgrading your Pentium 4 you will face compatibility questions that have nothing to do with ATX standard. Please open a new thread on the CPU or motherboard forums with your exact question (your current computer and what you are planning upgrade to) that we will try to help you there.

Cheers,
Gabriel.
Hi Gabriel
Take a look at the pix i sent on my post regarding powersupply form factor and ATX case for HPcompq D530 machine. This is only about a 4 year old system, the original supply is 240W and has 2satapwr, 24pinmobopwr, floppypwr, and 6 periph pwr...plus two ideHDDpwr...not bad for the time.
The machine stock has HP ATX mobo and P4 3GHz with 965 chipset.

Well, the case is real nice, toolless etc, but it in no way holds todays stock ATX power supply form factor....I have done my best to figure out what went down, but am beginning to suspect that HPcompaq actually designed their own supplies with their own form factor that wasn't std ATX...very beefy, the transformers caps heatsinks and rectifiers in it appear more beefy than those in a "new" 500W quality FSP or Antec (prob made by FSP anyway)

BUT, regardless, I am wishing to go up to another level with the supply, about 400-500W and top quality....even the "oldest" avail sparkle 300W on NewEgg today has the "new" ATX form factor supply and that won't fit this case, I don't know what the person who started this thread has, but I suggest actually measuring the mounting hole pattern. My case has a true rectangular power supply mounting hole pattern...
This is only 4 year old case.
Dimensions of mtg screw hole CL to CL are:
4.375x4.625
or in mm
111mmX117mm
The new ones are much different, narrower, taller, and only two are in the corners of the supply, the other two are offset, and one isn't offset inline with any of the other three....to use a new STD ATX supply I will have to literally ADD sheetmetal to the case with rivets and drill and tap new holes also. Can't screw into Air, leave a gaping 1/2 inch hole the hole length of the supply, or mount it by one screw, and trust me, only ONE screw with new supply will mate the original HP D530 case...the rest are biting AIR.
fyi
Bill
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Old 01-04-2009, 02:14 AM   #3
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Default

Quote:
AT vs. ATX

There are two basic differences between AT and ATX power supplies: The connectors that provide power to the motherboard, and the soft switch. On older AT power supplies, the Power-on switch wire from the front of the computer is connected directly to the power supply.
On newer ATX power supplies, the power switch on the front of the computer goes to the motherboard over a connector labeled something like; PS ON, Power SW, SW Power, etc. This allows other hardware and/or software to turn the system on and off.
The motherboard controls the power supply through pin #14 of the 20 pin connector or #16 of the 24 pin connector on the motherboard. This pin carries 5V when the power supply is in standby and the wire is GREEN. It can be grounded (connected to any black pins) to turn the power supply on without having to turn on the rest of the components. This is great for testing if you don't have a spare motherboard around, or don't want to connect a suspicious power supply to a working motherboard with risk of damaging it.
AT means Advanced Technology. ATX means Advanced Technology Extended.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_power_supply
Yes manufacturers have/do make changes to make their parts proprietary. You may need a Compaq power supply.

Voltages can have a +/- 5% variance. -12V can have a +/- 10% variance.

Maybe this page will help???

http://www.atxpowersupplies.com/powe...-reference.php

Here is ATX 1.1 from August 2000.

http://www.formfactors.org/developer...12V_PS_1_1.pdf

Here is ATX12V 2.2 from March 2005.

http://www.formfactors.org/developer...public_br2.pdf


Here is Power Supply Design Guide for Desktop Platform Form Factors Revision 1.1 March 2007. This version includes ATX12V 2.3 and is the latest version that I can find.

http://www.formfactors.org/developer...DG_rev_1_1.pdf

Last edited by Cheetos; 03-25-2009 at 09:42 AM.
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Old 01-04-2009, 01:31 PM   #4
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[quote=Merman;10472]Here is ATX 1.1 from August 2000.

http://www.formfactors.org/developer...12V_PS_1_1.pdf

Thanks, so I can clearly see from the ATX1.1 mech dimensions that the "new" power supply physical dimensions and mounting hole pattern go back at least that far.

This means that HP Compq HPcompaq pc's for business class, at least as recently as 2005 insofar as D530 Convertible Minitower are NOT ATX compatible cases, even though they use ATX motherboards.

They are "something else" with respect to the supplies, either they are older, say AT or XT etc, or proprietary compaq form factor...they are much heavier, boxy shaped supplies, ie very cubic, not as oblong rectangle as ATX.

Not seeing availability for this form factor anywhere...

Anyone know mfg/supplier still making them, or an adapter plate to convert to ATX so can easily mount?

...these cases, for the rest of their part, are quality, quiet, modular, toolless, and nice design....with plenty of space for up to 100W ATX power supply in the top rear, but, the mounting hole pattern is designed for much older style case power supply. Suspecting AT or XT form factor supply, that has updated guts for ATX P4 support mobo. The original supply even had PFC and SATA. These cases are VERY available and common, cheap, nice.

thx
Bill

[quote=Bill;10478]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Merman View Post
Here is ATX 1.1 from August 2000.

http://www.formfactors.org/developer...12V_PS_1_1.pdf

Thanks, so I can clearly see from the ATX1.1 mech dimensions that the "new" power supply physical dimensions and mounting hole pattern go back at least that far.

This means that HP Compq HPcompaq pc's for business class, at least as recently as 2005 insofar as D530 Convertible Minitower are NOT ATX compatible cases, even though they use ATX motherboards.

They are "something else" with respect to the supplies, either they are older, say AT or XT etc, or proprietary compaq form factor...they are much heavier, boxy shaped supplies, ie very cubic, not as oblong rectangle as ATX.

Not seeing availability for this form factor anywhere...

Anyone know mfg/supplier still making them, or an adapter plate to convert to ATX so can easily mount?

...these cases, for the rest of their part, are quality, quiet, modular, toolless, and nice design....with plenty of space for up to 100W ATX power supply in the top rear, but, the mounting hole pattern is designed for much older style case power supply. Suspecting AT or XT form factor supply, that has updated guts for ATX P4 support mobo. The original supply even had PFC and SATA. These cases are VERY available and common, cheap, nice.

thx
Bill
That's 1000W capable...not 100...edit function busted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Merman View Post
Yes manufacturers have/do make changes to make their parts proprietary. You may need a Compaq power supply.

Voltages can have a +/- 5% variance. -12V can have a +/- 10% variance.

Maybe this page will help???

http://www.atxpowersupplies.com/powe...-reference.php

Well, not a help, Cannto go with a compq, the only thing they offer for that is oem replacement, same wattage, same form factor...I am refurbing, hate landfilling a perfectly good case-mobo-processor just to upgrade supply wattage when adding more drives and cards. Runs the P4 3G, mobo, 4Gddr2400 and 2DVDrw, floppy, 2WD IDEhdds, modest video card, and audigy just fine. But wanting to upgrade to a raid 10 with more larger capacity drives, add fans and just not thinking I want to keep a 240W supply, even though it sure seems better built than the latest 4to5hundred watters. The original mobo, processor and bios provide no means of thermal tracking.

I'm thinking sheetmetal addition or adapter conversion plate now only way.
thx
Bill

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill View Post
Well, not a help, Cannto go with a compq, the only thing they offer for that is oem replacement, same wattage, same form factor...I am refurbing, hate landfilling a perfectly good case-mobo-processor just to upgrade supply wattage when adding more drives and cards. Runs the P4 3G, mobo, 4Gddr2400 and 2DVDrw, floppy, 2WD IDEhdds, modest video card, and audigy just fine. But wanting to upgrade to a raid 10 with more larger capacity drives, add fans and just not thinking I want to keep a 240W supply, even though it sure seems better built than the latest 4to5hundred watters. The original mobo, processor and bios provide no means of thermal tracking. ADDED: nor voltage monitoring or thermal margin.

I'm thinking sheetmetal addition or adapter conversion plate now only way.
thx
Bill
ADDED: nor voltage monitoring or thermal margin.

That I had to do to install a COTS ATX standard power supply in an HPcompaq Pentium4 D530 Convertible Minitower case.
1-had to drill new holes/slots for two screws on top
2-had to cut out sheetmetal 4fan clearance access 2not block PS exhaust
3-had to fabricate a plate to block the 1/2inch gaping hole between PS/frame
4-had to remove right angle connectors for HDDs from old ps cabling, and splice onto the new supply cabling...one set for PATA and one set for SATA.
You won't see the SATA since I haven't converted over, wanted to run sys.

Pix below show the process, and the final results, which I'm pleased with.
Took about 2 hours to mod the case for the new std ATX supply and splice in the new cabling. But I have a nibbler....might have been longer w/saw.

fyi if you want to upgrade a D530 HPcompaq, this is what you need 2do.
BTW: definitely makes a difference...the CD drives were not performing as well without the new PS...likely not getting enough current draw...

fyi--Bill

Here's the pix of the power supply cable fix to be able to close the case
AND
the finished product
Bill
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Last edited by Cheetos; 03-25-2009 at 09:47 AM.
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Old 01-04-2009, 11:45 PM   #5
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Talking final solution for HPcompaq D530 case to ATX power supply

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill View Post
ADDED: nor voltage monitoring or thermal margin.
Final: CompaqHP D530 And similar Toolless minitower are nice cases, but it did require cutting sheetmetal, adding sheetmetal (could use metal ducting tape) and drilling holes.
Additonal: also since the HDDs are loaded facing the sideplate, oem design requires right angle power supply connections, regardless if SATA or PATA, so either buy adapters or splice in the originals if you saved the power supply cables from the old one, etc...abadeyah thats all folks....
The mobos are std 20pin ATX style interface, no issue there, and, those weird orig voltages are meaningless, don't know what was ever up with that, nothing in the industry used those...just hpcomp.
Regardless, the std COTS ATX power supply works just great, once you mod the case to fit etc.
...c starting condition, casemod markings before cutting, final completed case...pix in "caseforum".
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Old 01-05-2009, 10:48 AM   #6
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Quote:
had the following: 5.08v, 3.33v, 12v, 12.8v, -12v, 5.08vaux
I've never seen any PC power supply with such nominal values. Are you sure that is what is written on the label or you are getting these values by yourself using a multimeter? If this is what is posted on the label, please post a picture of the label. If you are getting these values using a multimeter, which I think it is the case, than you are wrong, these values are +5 V, +3,3 V, +12 V, +12 V, -12 V and +5 V respectivelly (and what you say "VAUX" is probably +5VSB, purple wire, or "power good", gray wire). All voltages are allowed to have up to 5% tolerance from their nominal values (10% for -12 V).

If I am correct, then you only need to see if the plugs are the same, if they are just go ahead and replace the damn PSU. They only thing that will matter is if the new PSU fits the hole from your old unit.

Cheers,
Gabriel.
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Old 01-13-2009, 12:20 PM   #7
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Default Hi Gabriel

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabriel Torres View Post
I've never seen any PC power supply with such nominal values. Are you sure that is what is written on the label or you are getting these values by yourself using a multimeter? If this is what is posted on the label, please post a picture of the label. If you are getting these values using a multimeter, which I think it is the case, than you are wrong, these values are +5 V, +3,3 V, +12 V, +12 V, -12 V and +5 V respectivelly (and what you say "VAUX" is probably +5VSB, purple wire, or "power good", gray wire). All voltages are allowed to have up to 5% tolerance from their nominal values (10% for -12 V).

If I am correct, then you only need to see if the plugs are the same, if they are just go ahead and replace the damn PSU. They only thing that will matter is if the new PSU fits the hole from your old unit.

Cheers,
Gabriel.
Hi Gabriel
I wouldn't have stated it if it weren't real. I had already posted a picture of both the older supply and the current std ATX form factor. But not focused on the label, purpose on that one was to show shape of odd oem supply.

As you likely noted via the rest of my thread, after considerable research on ALL std power supply form factor and voltages going back to original IBM PC itself, (we are talking all the way back to the early 80's here), I determined that HP and Compaq (now merged) did and do make proprietary power supplies and cases to match that do not conform to ATX. Their mobo's are also not quite ATX and not quite mini-ATX. Go Figure.

That is why I commented in your earlier thread to another inquirer that the statement "everything is std ATX and compatible" isn't quite true if the person has one of these HP Compaq business class cases. This case I am working on is only 4 years old, has a 3GHz P4 and both SATA and ATA.
(Example D530, D510, etc and may apply even to the ones rolling out now).

I went ahead and upgraded the case, if you look at the casemod pix in the thread you can see what was required to fit a std supply.

HPcompaq only has replacement 240W supplies for this case at $165. Not an upgrade wattage. So a case mod is required to use this type case for upgrade mod. Overall it is still a nice case, and I think worth the trouble, see the photos of completed upgrade mod in this thread.

In the original start of this thread I had included pictures of the non-std HP Compaq supply side by side with a true current ATX.

The supply from HP Compaq was definitely proprietary unique form factor.
Very robust and reliable design, but definitely underpowered for new use.
When I replaced it, the DVD drives spun up much differently, I think they were getting starved a bit.

Since the voltages on label were within the tolerance range for current ATX supply, I simply verified pin-outs to the mobo for 20-pin power and 4-pin power on the mobo. Even the color schemes match. And of course, they are using std CD and DVD and Floppy drives, and STD RAM and CPU, so I believe their voltage levels were their own internal means of optimizing the powerforms supplied to their mobo.

I then powered it up with the std ATX power supply and bingo.

However: Jury is still out on this....while attempting to test if this unit would work for TIVO type DVI unit I setup S-video convertor to Composite video to an analog 32" TV. While setting up the ATI Catalyst settings between the monitor and TV display, the display on the TV was coming on and off as I reset the resolution to see affects.

Apparently either the TV or the card doesn't really like that, since it's an older CRT type tv. When the entire screen display output from the GPU card goes on/off there is a power back-surge on the line due to CRT getting signal switched abruptly on and off from the VGA card.

Anyway, during one of those cycles, suddenly lost windows and was in restart screen. After t-shooting, determined that had lost ability to use mobo RAM slots 2and4, RAM itself was ok, but now get mem errors in those secondary DDR slots, primary 2 DDRslots fine. AND lost my secondary Hdd. Dead dead dead. Graphics card seems fine, but won't be using that TV out slot again unless have DigitalTV.

Doubt if this has ANYTHING to do with the odd power forms, but you never know...it is a proprietary mobo. Had been mem, prime, and passmark stable unit with same gear up to that video out test.

There is the chance that the HP Compaq mobo actually wants those weird voltages as nominal with +/- tolerance around that value versus tolerance to std ATX values =/- tolerance. Doubt it, but OEM's can do weird things in the vein of requiring folks return to them for costly parts.

So far, no problems, the form-factor chassis cutout and rt angle cable is all that I believe is required to use these cases....and there are literally millions of them in use in the US at least, now working their way into aftermarket.

Here's close up of the label:
thanks
Bill
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Old 03-24-2009, 05:09 AM   #8
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Default compaq psu's

Thanks on your efforts above (Bill).

I have a compaq d330 st slimline unit that has a similar PSU.

As a hobbyist I fooling with this for a while, ordered fancy ram and a new cpu, returned incompatible parts that were mis-shipped, long blather, slap parts in (wrist strap and all) and pooched something, seems to be the PSU. No fan spin up, led on board flashes continuous, front led blinks at same rate when power depressed, continuous flashes not matching any published codes (ref HP support website).

I was going to try the pin mod LM chip solution with a standard ATX psu but with yours and others efforts I think I am going to drop it unless someone has successfuly accomplished this conversion. The wierd nominal voltages from this unit it would be cheaper to get another complete desktop for 89.99 than (for me) to drop any more cash into this. At this point I can't verify my new parts as unit now dead and original parts still result in flashing LED condition. I also reset bios proper incase that was the issue.

For any cannuks interested in this D330 ST compaq it can be found ref www factorydirect ca and would be a good source of "used" psu's cheaper than compaq's 165.00 replacement.

With 1 gig pc 2700 ram and its standard 2.4 gig celeron +160 gig ata drive I was able to perfectly capture via firewire hidef programming from my 8300HD PVR (recorded material) with a cheap low profile firewire card at 11% cpu. Playback was fine on pc at fullscreen. Flawless stream capture at about 7.5 gig for 1080i 90 minute program. Direct playback of transport stream with VLC and deinterlace looks perfect.

Until I poofed the PSU.

With this under-rated (185watt) compaq proprietary PSU I would be hesitant at this point to get the 8x AGP card for component output I have been looking at, considering I still have not verified function of new/usedsocket 478 processor and new ram

My quest has been to build a e-green Hidef HTPC for under 150.00 still continues. The D330 solution came really really close until this came up (89.00 desktop + 2.00 firewire card china direct + pending AGP, cpu and ram upgrades were not really necessary).

Any last tips on this PSU issue are appreciated as this combo is heading towards its grave sooner than later I suspect.

Dflash ---
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